Class

[Dayn]

So what do you think of having a stock class? I was thinking that since we ran in 3 classes last season we could run one on stock machines and keep our own scoring? No extra work for the organizers but maybe a bit of extra fun for us?

Thoughts?

[Dayn]

What should the rules be for this class? Stock stock or stock with a pipe? How about Disk brakes? Only OEM or should aftermarket ones be allowed?

[Dayn]

Here are the ASRA rules:

The ASRA stock class rules as of 2002:
This class became very competitive, so the ASRA version was pretty tight with stock bikes.
The stock base-gasket surface could not be enlarged. No modification to the transfer ports. Exhaust and intake ports could be modified.... Read more
Stock cylinder, ignition & flywheel, piston & rings, head (no modifications), stock exhaust, crank stroke, and drum brakes
Grey area items: Stuffing the crank, extra holes in the piston, only running one ring, T-5 4th gear, Cosa clutch, “Ape” or “GS” rear rims.
If a small frame was to enter: a kitted small frame was allowed but a stock carb and stock exhaust (ET3 or Primavera) was required.


I'm guessing that we discuss our rules as a group in preparation of the upcoming season. To me it would make sense to have a class that conforms to what is already established so that we can all freely attend each others events.

Having said that I think that with the prevalence of disk brake bikes that it would make sense to allow them.

I also like the idea of allowing aftermarket exhausts as they do in the UK. There are a couple of reasons why I like the idea one simply being that it would "up the play" so to speak of the class. Also as the simplest and most effective bolt on performance upgrade it is also the most likely upgrade that the typical rider is likely to undertake. This could allow local shops and manufacturers to showcase both the products that they carry or produce as well as their ability to build a reliable and fast scooter that is within reach of the average rider.

Anyway the exhaust issue is an easy one as far as compatibility goes. It's easy to take off or replace with a stock unit. The Disc brake is a bit more difficult as it's not as easy to reverse. Does anyone know what the Denver guys are running? I think that they are the only other active racing group other than the ASRA?

Oh and as far as small frames go I'm likely the only one that would think of racing one in the stock class but I think that stock with an exhaust would also be a fun and competitive ride in that class however I could go either way on that.

Anyway these are only my thoughts, but I think that it is a discussion that needs to happen.


Cheers,

Dayn

[mtndewlamby]

I agree, that at this time parts that are typical upgrades should be allowed on stock bikes. It would also be great to get the ASRA to have the same rules. Here in California, vintage scooter racing has not been revitalized yet. Only 6 racers hit the track one time last year. It would be great to open up a racing opportunity to a larger range of vintage scooters. I will get Jesse Dillon, our past ASRA president, involved with further discussion.

I would really enjoy a travel up to the North West for a race. I know I can get at least one chap to join me.

Here is the Polini Cup schedule for 2010. The ASRA has not officially identified which of the following dates they will participate in. If we get enough participants we will have both a "Stock" and a "Modified" Class.
April 3-4 May 1-2 June 5-6 August 28-29 October 2-3

For more info please check out "ASRA" on Face book

[paddyfitz]

I like the idea of stock + pipe.
I think it gives the everyday rider a chance to take their stock whatever out there and try it out for starters. No huge monetary output and not much tuning kung fu necessary.
Gateway drug.
I also like the idea of using existing guidelines and modifying them (if necessary) to fit our means.

[paddyfitz]

Discs... Meh.
I don't care that much. I do think it adds an extra element of effort (and a little bit of danger) if you don't have one.
Not sure why, but that appeals to me.
I could go either way.

[j2]

So stock class means any stock vintage bike? It seems to me the idea of a stock class is to level the playing field by everyone being on the same size bike, then it comes down more to riding skill. I assumed it would be stock 200's, but perhaps we should make it 125s then you could roll a p125 or your stock smallframe, then I will bring out my t-5 and crush everyone.
seriously though, I think it should be no disc brake, bone stock and a maximum cc limit, and if pipes are allowed they have to be on a list of approved pipes to keep the playing field level.

[Dayn]

Here is what is on the Denver Yahoo group:

f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wIvwSgjJfMo3G63JqEx1SIzuCZQvA276h-Um76McdC3WbYyJG1Evb4G3rLjpPtjRw75cDjfMJfBCr8frRoK3_QoP0U6DCItlWVA/StockRulesVespa.pdf

[Dayn]

Here is what our rules currently state:


1. Stock Class
The machine must meet all of the necessary guidelines outlined in the definitions and inspection sections, and be completely stock, the following modifications are allowed:
a. Cylinder Porting
i. Intake and exhaust timings may be modified.
ii. Transfer ports may be radiused at their inlets, but the "base gasket"
transfer surfaces may not be enlarged. Port matching between the
cylinder and cases is limited to removing the minimum amount of
material required from one of the surfaces to make it match with the
corresponding surface.
iii. Transfer port timing may not be altered.
b. Pistons & Rings
i. Overbores are limited to "original equipment" maximum oversizes.
ii. "Original Equipment" type piston rings must be used. Wire ring pistons
are allowed. The reason for this is that Cosa pistons and the Lambretta
Original Equipment pistons are now made with wire rings.
iii. The piston may be modified, but the crown and ring grooves must remain as stock.
c. Carburetion
i. Carburetor may be rejetted.
ii. Carburetor size is limited to maximum size of "original equipment" supplied for that make of machine. The carburetor venturi may not be polished or increased in size in any manner.
d. Ignition
Ignition must be by external rotor magneto, no internal rotor or dead-loss systems in this class.
e. Tires
i. Any choice of tire brand may be used.
ii. Non-standard tire sizes may not be used. The exception to this rule will be 8" wheels. There will be no 8" wheels on the track.
iii. Size-equivalent metric sized tires may be used.



f. Brakes
i. Disk brakes are authorized on models that were fitted with them as original equipment.
ii. The front brake may be hooked up "reverse pull".
g. Exhaust
i. Any choice of exhaust system may be used provided it maintains the same shape and mounting points as a standard exhaust for that machine, i.e. Lambretta big bore or Vespa Sito Plus. (*See governing federation rules).
ii. Stock Pasco exhausts may only be used on Pascos. Stock Pasco exhausts must have additional mounting points added for rider and track safety.
iii. All 4-stroke Bajaj models may use POC exhausts.
h. Transmission
Stiffer clutch springs may be used.
i. Oil delivery
Auto-lube oil injection systems may be removed.
j. Body Modifications
i. Cut down frames must race in Specials class.
ii. Side panels must be on the scooter and not cutdown. Turn signals may be removed.
iii. Protruding toolboxes may be removed.
iv. Fiberglass front fenders shall be allowed on large frame Lambretta’s as they were original equipment on some models.
v. Any readily available seat specifically designed for the scooter in question may be used, provided it retains the mounting and securing system originally employed by that scooter.
vi. The frame may not be strengthened by adding any structural members. (example: bar connecting head tube to seat area). Exceptions will be made as follows:
1. Lambretta frames may be reinforced and/or gusseted at the motor mount as on later model Servetas.
2. Original seams may be re-welded.
vii. The dimensions of headstock height, for length or angle, and seat mounting area height may not be altered beyond any of the same standard dimensions for any model of the same make and family of machines (See "Definitions of Families of Machines")
viii. Ground clearance may not be increased by the cutting, bending, or removal of the floorboards.
ix. Forks must be original type for the frame being used.
x. Handlebars must be original to the frame type.
xi. Custom fuel tanks, whether specially constructed or adapted from another model of scooter, will be allowed, provided that the tank fits within the framework of the scooter in the location of the original tank, with no modifications to the external bodywork of the scooter.
k. Motor Swapping
i. Small frames running in the Stock class will be allowed to mix parts from any of the various small- frame models or the exact aftermarket equivalent.
ii. Large frame scooters running in the Stock class will be allowed to mix parts from any of various large-frame models or the exact aftermarket equivalent.
iii. Bajaj’s, LML’s, and PGO’s running in the Stock class will be allowed to use stock Vespa motors (and vice versa).
iv. Pascos and Servettas running in the Stock class will be allowed to use stock Lambretta motors (and vice versa). However, stock Pasco exhausts may only be used on Pascos.
*Suspension Clarifier*
Stock scooters may use any stock motor from the same machine family, but they must use the OEM fork for that machine family. In other words, any pre P-series large frame scooter must use a pre P-series large frame fork. As an experiment we are going to allow ANY direct fit aftermarket spring/shock units. These units must be readily available and mounted in the same manner as the stock unit they are replacing. We have noticed that some machines are under sprung from the factory and this rule is being changed as a safety issue.

[paddyfitz]

I like that it says the factory suspension is being questioned as a safety issue.
Awesome.
The rest sounds pretty legit.

[paddyfitz]

So yeah - stock with a pipe and good suspension.
The jerk in me says nope to the non stock disc, but I think it'll even the playing field a bit.
I also think tuned expansion chambers on the stock class is totally do-able.
Johnny and Drat had a great time at the last race. Their setups weren't crazy different, and they really duked it out.
Drat did complain about the suspension on that bike and I don't blame him. I took it out the day before and it handled like a boat on the high seas. The fact that he did as well as he did is... beyond me.

[brad66]

Here are my thoughts:
The ASRA rules are almost 20 years old, although they have been modified to incorporate the autos and 4 cycles, you have to remember that in CA there are a ton of racers with money and P200's. We had all of two stock P200's running this year, one was mine that I ended up selling to Corazzo and they will be putting a team together for next year with Drat at the helm. The motor was tuned by the ASRA rules. As far as I know, Johnny's P has no such work. My old P has a horrible ineffective front brake. John's does have a good front brake and they have comparable pipes. So it was all about the rider, Johnny is awesome, but Drat is a very experienced racer and can get on anything including his Ducati 999 and race the balls off it. I was shocked that he could keep up with Johnny. So here is what I think about the obvious exclusions that ours and the ASRA rules have:
1. Disk Brakes, they are just safer, I will not exclude any part, original or otherwise that makes anything bike safer. Also, keep in mind that Late model PX's and Stella's have a front disk, so how do you deal with that?
2. Performance pipe. We are faced with the fact that all of our P's have pipes. I would start asking people to remove their pipes if they want to race in the stock class and maybe better put, If we end up splitting up into say a modified class and a stock class, it is not reasonable to put my 40Hp Lambretta in the same class as a stock P with a pipe. So, I am all good with Pipes in a stock class
3. Suspension, again, no issue, it makes the bike safer to handle and help you stick in the corners, stock P shocks are really poopy and again, I do not want to end up putting a stock P with shocks in a class against 40 Hp scooters.
What I know but this year confirmed is that a fast, good handling bike with good brakes that someone spent thousands of dollars on is not the key factor, it is the rider. We do NOT have 1/4 - 1/2 mile straights to content with where a tuned bike with an inexperienced rider can walk past a pro rider on a stock bike.
It still remains how the classes will be structured, this is why Dayn is asking for your input. You have to thing about how things will look if we only end up with two classes as the group we are racing with. We could end up with more, ad that would be great.
Our other goal is to end up with some reasonable division, I do not want to end up losing someone that wants to race because they either think they will have to spend ass-loads of money to be competitive or that they will be board running around in first place by themselves on a 10,000 race scooter. There will be a place for all involved to come out and have fun competing and learning.
I am setting up a meeting in Seattle on December 13th, which is the weekend of the International Motorcycle Show. Probably around 3:00PM, at a location tba. If you cant make it then please chime in so we can get everyone's opinion.

[paddyfitz]

Based on what Brad said - 2 classes may be the ticket. I think the number of riders who show up may be a factor as well.
Although... I'm seeing people putting together a lot of kitted bikes and not a lot of stock ones...
I will be at the Seattle meeting on the 13th.

[JJ]

I would build a stock bike and race it. or just build it and make it a loaner race bike to get another person out there. I have a p200 project ready for this.

[Dayn]

Yeah Drat and Johnny seemed to be mixing it up pretty good and I have to say it looked pretty fun and I'd like to get in on that.

The reason why I'd like to clarify this is simply so that I can start working on a bike.

I'm for discs ... any disc ... mostly because the scootRS one is cheap and easy to mount on any bike keeping costs down.

So can we all agree to amend the stock class rules to allow for disc, and pipe?

Cheers,

Dayn